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minordeath
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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Hey guys, I've been discussing with Zhengshi for using a new loot system for Legion.. at least for the beginning tiers. I was thinking of using Suicide Kings (SK) as our loot system. Here's a basic run down of the system (for a more detailed rundown check out http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Suicide_Kings ):

SK works as a list based system. You bid your position on the list for items. When you win an item you drop to the bottom of the list. If you don't attend a raid, you do not move anywhere on the list. For example:

Item drops. List looks as follows:

1 - minordeath - present
2 - Zhengshi - present
3 - Dylora - present
4 - Marebrac - absent
5 - Dreamlesnight - present

Everyone on the list wants the item, so they bid their position. minordeath is at the top of the list and so he wins the item and drops to the bottom of the list. Marebrac is absent from raid so he doesn't move. After item award, the list will look like the following:

1 - Zhengshi
2 - Dylora
3 - Dreamlesnight
4 - Marebrac
5 - minordeath

Pros:
-Quick and easy looting with a transparent system
-Members that gear up some outside of raid are able to save their position for higher priority items
-Missing raids will not put you far behind others

Cons:
-Members may hold their position, passing on gear that are upgrades in favor of waiting for a high priority item
-No reward for punctuality

We can make modifications to the system, or use another system completely if y'all would like. The intent of the change in loot system is to get gear around raid members more evenly while also rewarding members for gearing up outside of our raids. I believe this will assist in early progression, getting us back to the point of killing a few mythic bosses before the next big patch.

What are your guy's thoughts on using a system like this? Would y'all suggest another system to use (please give a quick run down and pros and cons)? 

MSgtThorin
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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1. How do you bid the position initially?

2. Keeping your place in line for missing a raid or two makes some sense, life happens. But in situations like mine where I have had to take a leave of absence due to work related issues, I do not feel right coming back and being at the top of the list first day back. But that's just me.

3. If you are first in line and you pass on an item you remain at the top right?

4. I am still a proponent of the loot council in certain cases. I like the ability of the council to award certain items where they will do the most good. The stronger we are collectively the better we will do and the more we will progress.

5. In theory it should save time handing out loot as well, in theory that is...

6. I have tried a variety of loot systems but I am willing to give it a run and see how it rolls, but........ only if Flip sings the "I like big butts" song to the raid!

 

Thorin :)

 

 



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Zhengshi
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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Minor glazed over it, but we can make adjustments to rules, like there is an attendance policy mod that I like a lot specifically for the reason you say.   There is also the possibility of having a list for say tier and weapons and a "everything else" list. 

As for how to set up initial position, a lot of teams just have everyone roll, and the order of high to low is your initial spot. 

Another question is how we would handle pugs and new people.  To be fair to pugs and to new raiders we need to decide how we introduce them.    one time pug seems like the fair thing is to let them roll for a position.  New raider seems like just putting at bottom of list as it would be equivalent to our existing 2week policy.

your question 3.   Yes.   if you are #1 and don't bid, you are still #1.  

The main points this should address is a.  speeding up loot.  b. instill a concept of only rolling on needed items, and not small upgrades that could be big upgrades for others. c. encourage people to spend time gearing up outside of raid. which will in turn help us be ready for later raid content quicker.

I will have more later, but thats it for now

minordeath
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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One concern I have been hearing so far about this system is for tier items. If we want, we can do one of three things. We can make a separate list for tier tracking, we can leave tier to loot council, or we can leave tier with the rest of the items on the one list.

Marebrac
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re: SK system

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I am always up for trying anything new; especially if the guild will progress faster and more efficiently. I remember a conversation with K about this years ago and the decision was not to use SK because of the autonomous nature of the system. Now, I recognize that loot council can be perceived as biased, and it is, but I would be cautious about removing the human element from loot. There is never going to be a perfectly fair and balanced system. That being said, if the inefficiencies of loot council are slowing us down or impairing the guild, then I am all for SK as an alternative.

-Mare

Khahan
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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I would actually recommend KSK.  Its a bit more refined than SK. The guild used it years ago and it worked really well. Things went very smoothly with it and it was an easy to use add on.

Zhengshi
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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konfer is one of the two addons ive been testing.  and its got a lot of nice features.   I wasnt aware that it was any different than SK though.  just some of the normal SK mods could be enabled in the addon.   could you articulate the differences between SK and KSK?

Xahna
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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Loot council does seem to be slowing us down sometimes.  I'd be up for a different system, such as SK, but would prefer it be only for Tier and WF (if that will exist).  Using /roll for regular loot works well and it's pretty fair.

Firelord Firesauce
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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I'd prefer the opposite of xhana, I feel like it should be for all gear, and if everyone passes it go to rolls. Sometimes a regular version of an item is still a big upgrade for people, and people might be willing to bid for them for priority.

minordeath
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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I have to agree with firesauce in that it should be for all loot. The reason being is that if we only do it for tier/warforged, then that takes the gearing strategy out of each raid members hands for the most part. If we let it go for all pieces of gear, each person can decide how best to use their position for gear and thus set bonuses will stagger in to the raid, instead of every member (per token) getting 1 piece of tier before anyone gets a 2nd piece.

Tyrovar
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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First of all, in my opinion, the simpler the loot system, the better. Loot is great, but it's not the main reason we raid. We want to kill bosses, not fight over the trinkets that drop off of them. That being said, I think that SK will work a lot better for the guild than our current system. I agree with Xahna that loot council can sometimes slow us down, and I feel that SK would certainly be faster overall. However, there are a few questions that I would like to ask:

1. How would SK work for new recruits? Would we insert them into the rotation at the bottom, and keep them there until their trial period is over, should we have them start moving up through positions immediately, or should we opt for some other way to handle new recruits entirely?

2. Will punctuality affect the loot system, and how? We have players who can't show up for the raid on time all of the time due to RL concerns, and I feel that they would be punished too heavily if we simply mark them as absent for the entire raid. At the same time, we don't want people joining in halfway through raid time and demanding an item off of the next boss. Perhaps we could mark absences on a boss by boss basis?

minordeath
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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As with the entirety of the system, it is all up for discussion to find the best way to make this fit for us. Here's what I currently have in mind for your questions Tyro:

1) New recruits will be placed on the bottom of the list and will be able to move up the list immediately. They will not be eligible to bid over core members for tier/WF for the course of their trial period (2 weeks) but can on normal gear.

2) For attendance, members who miss 4 or more raids per month will not be able to bid over a member that is there every night. As far as late shows go, I'm not quite sure how to handle it. We can't go on a boss basis as on farm nights they would be punished for being late more than for the same amount of time being late on progression nights. I think trying to base attendance on hours would be a little more cumbersome. Any ideas?

minordeath
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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Zhengshi and I did some testing tonight on an addon, and it looks like we will be using KonferSK addon. 

The addon can be downloaded here:
http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/ksk

More information about the system can be found here:
http://wow.curseforge.com/addons/ksk/

Having the addon is not required to use. However, having the addon does allow you to see where you are on the list at any time and give you quick buttons and a loot window for when gear is being bid/rolled on (don't worry, the window is significantly smaller than AMR's window).

Lorenil
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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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Don't know if the addon has changed much but the real power in it comes when everone in the raid is running the addon.

basically the loot master clicks on the dead boss and the addon sends out the list of loot too all others with the addon and they can see what dropped and simply hit the bid button on the items they want once the time is up it automatically distributes the loot without any interaction from the loot master needed.

you also used to be able to setup seperate lists for tier items.

pugs you add to main list and it you can have it randomly assign them into the list.  So they can be anywhere on the list and we typically didn't have a problem with pugs back then as they still got plenty of drops that no one else on the list wanted so they would be the one to get it even when on the bottom..



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re: Next XPac Loot System Thoughts

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I think just like every system, they all have their own flaws and bonuses.

Things I would say to think about if we go to this system:

  • What happens to those trying to hoard for an item?  For example, I have my eyes set on a certain item (say trinket) that has a super rare drop rate.  I decide to not bid my position because I am waiting for it to drop.  As I am waiting, other people who wear the same kind of armor start going up and down the chain getting items, week after week.  Eventually everyone has a certain piece of loot that is the same and used by everyone and I am the last person needing a certain piece that everyone has.  I don't want it because it will drop my position.  Do we disenchant the item or give it to me while letting me keep my priority.  I think a flaw would be people trying to hoard their position in hopes of a certain item, while passing on others, which could possibly be disenchanted or given to people by default because they were patient enough to wait
  • Tier pieces and Warforged I think should be a separate priority list as well as only available to core raiders and raiders.  Any subs or trial members can gain access to these items if no one from the main team needs (unless someone's main has an attendance issue).  This will give us 2 priority lists and I think that is easy to keep track of.
  • I think trial members should remain at the bottom of the list and not move up during their trial.  This does not mean they are not able to get loot, it only means if everyone else passes as well as them paying their dues, not just guild hopping.
  • How will off spec pieces go?  Just free roll?

Overall, I am fine with whatever system we do.  I am all about getting content down and progressing.  Gear comes and goes and everyone will get gear eventually.

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